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- This topic has 4 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 2 months ago by Pradeep Kumar.
January 24, 2022 at 3:08 pm #13783
Hare Krishna prabhu,
I have read in your works that gross body is not an “Object”, rather it is discreet states manifesting based on karma and desires of the soul. Such a relief to understand this. Never understood “dehinosmin” verse before.
It would be great if you can explain about subtle body in similar way.
1) what is “body” in subtle body? If the conceptions, desires, fears, frustrations, impressions about self and the world etc constitutes subtle body, what form it will have? Will it have a “form” similar to that shown as “ghost” form shown in movies? By purification of consciousness can we see this form just like we see gross body?
2) Is subtle body is also not An “Object”?rather different states manifested based on karma from unmanifested possibilities by time? And is it true that causal body which is more subtle is the property of Lord Shiva and assigned to the soul when soul enters material world and given back to him when soul goes back to spiritual world?
3) How subtle changes at the time of death? How a man by one’s actions/desires in this life, destined to become animal vs demigod vs go to spiritual world changes/transforms/gives up Subtle body at the time of death?
Thank you for your time and insights. Probably, this is the only place we get clear answers to these topics in the world!!January 25, 2022 at 5:23 am #13784Ashish DalelaKeymaster
what is “body” in subtle body? If the conceptions, desires, fears, frustrations, impressions about self and the world etc constitutes subtle body, what form it will have?
It has a form similar to the gross bodily form, but it may not be identical to the gross bodily form. For example, the gross form can be human but the subtle form can be an animal form. All concepts of sense perception can be applied to the mind. So, for example, the mind can be hard or soft, bitter or sweet, heavy or light. People use these as metaphors like a “heavy heart” or a “beautiful mind”.
By purification of consciousness can we see this form just like we see gross body?
Even without much purification we can understand the subtle form. For example, people are often compared to “snakes” or “jackals” or “foxes”, because their subtle form is like that.
Is subtle body is also not An “Object”?rather different states manifested based on karma from unmanifested possibilities by time?
Yes, the “object” is Durga and the material world is a state of conscious experience of Durga. Object simply means a person or soul. And the soul becomes tenant in that experience. By that tenancy, we can say that the object is the individual soul, and the rest is the state of the soul. But in an ever deeper sense, there is Durga as the object, and the material world is a property of that object. Ultimately, only Krishna is the object, and even Durga is a property of that object.
And is it true that causal body which is more subtle is the property of Lord Shiva and assigned to the soul when soul enters material world and given back to him when soul goes back to spiritual world?
All bodies are material, so they are properties of Durga. Lord Shiva as time directs the successive manifestations of these bodies.
How subtle changes at the time of death? How a man by one’s actions/desires in this life, destined to become animal vs demigod vs go to spiritual world changes/transforms/gives up Subtle body at the time of death?
The subtle body doesn’t change at time of death. Whatever subtle body is cultivated in this life is carried forward and manifests the next gross body.January 25, 2022 at 2:19 pm #13785
All bodies are material, so they are properties of Durga. Lord Shiva as time directs the successive manifestations of these bodies.
How to understand below (Sri Brahma Samhita 5.16 purport) in this context?
“The innumerable jīvas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuṇṭha. But when they desire to lord it over Māyā, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Śambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Śambhu is the primary principle of the egotistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jīvas that identifies itself with their limited material bodies.”
The subtle body doesn’t change at time of death. Whatever subtle body is cultivated in this life is carried forward and manifests the next gross body.
How to understand Srila Prabhupada’s statement that “spool” of current life is played before dying person and where ever “spool” stops, that is moment is the “moment of death” and consciousness at that time takes one to next body. As subtle body might have already been “fixed” by this time, what is significance of above statement?January 26, 2022 at 4:29 am #13786Ashish DalelaKeymaster
the egotistic principle Śambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Śambhu is the primary principle of the egotistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jīvas that identifies itself with their limited material bodies
When we associate with something, the properties of that thing appear in us. The basic principle of material creation is egotism, or “I am the master”, “I am the enjoyer”, and “I am capable”. Surrender to Krishna means feeling helpless, becoming a servant, and following the will of the Lord. In this world, sometimes we feel helpless, but we don’t become a servant of the Lord. So that feeling of helplessness is temporary because we are still trying to be empowered. Therefore, even if we feel helpless there is the notion that I’m the master and enjoyer. That feeling is called Lord Shiva.
Krishna is most powerful, but He never feels like that. He feels totally dependent on His devotees. So He cries if His mother scolds Him. He begs and apologizes to the gopis to accept Him. Even though He is the master and enjoyer, He feels grateful to His devotees and considers Himself undeserving. The notion of Godliness is hidden in Him, even though He is God. But there is an aspect of Him where He could feel entitled, powerful, capable, and in control of things. That aspect is hidden in Krishna and it is visible in Lord Shiva. So, Lord Shiva is a part of Krishna, and yet, because this egotism is hidden in Krishna, therefore, Lord Shiva manifests properties hidden in Krishna.
Similarly, the potential for ego is always present in the soul. But in the spiritual world, the desire for mastery is overcome by the feeling of love, service, dependence, and helplessness. In the material world, the feelings of love, service, dependence, and helplessness are overcome by the desire for mastery. But both types of emotions are present as potentials in the soul and can be manifest.
One way to manifest that potential is an external trigger. Just like your mind has the potential to think of an apple even if an apple is not present. However, an external apple triggers that potential in the mind and you think of the apple. During the dreaming stage, the mind’s potential is activated without an external trigger, and during the waking stage, it is triggered by an external apple.
In the same way, the soul’s egotism can be manifest automatically like a dream. Or, it can be manifest by the contact with the material energy whose basic principle is egotism. The process described in Vedic texts is that there is some idea of independence in the soul due to which it comes into contact with the material energy. By this contact with material energy, this egotism is exacerbated through various steps. For example, “I am independent” is a mild form of egotism than “I am the enjoyer”. Then, “I am the enjoyer” is a milder form of egotism than “I am great”. Then, “I am great” is a milder form of egotism than “I am entitled to receive or that I have rights”.
Just like you may be feeling slightly upset about something, and then you meet another person who is upset about the same thing. Then, together, both of you become more upset about the same thing. In the same way, when the soul develops the idea of independence, it comes into contact with an egoistic form of God called Lord Shiva, and by association with Him, the soul becomes more egoistic.
However, the nature of an egoistic person is that he cannot tolerate another egoistic person. So, even as you become more egoistic in contact with an egoistic person, after a while, the other egoistic person will try to exert their domination on you and subjugate you. In the same way, contact with material energy increases our ego and subsequently subjugates our ego. This cycle of increase and decrease of the ego is the material universe. An evil person wants his subordinates to be evil to others, but good toward him. A thief wants an honest accountant, but not so honest that he will not steal from others. So, honesty is in relation to the master, but deception is for others. Therefore, after a while, the servant becomes tired of the master’s control and wants to be independent.
So, egotism is always a temporary and contradictory situation. But love is not like that. If you love someone perfect, then they will love you more. And then by seeing their love, your love will increase. Likewise, if you serve someone perfect, they will serve you more. And by seeing that service, your service will increase. So, spiritual life means continuous progress, and material life is a cycle.
How to understand Srila Prabhupada’s statement that “spool” of current life is played before dying person and where ever “spool” stops, that is moment is the “moment of death” and consciousness at that time takes one to next body. As subtle body might have already been “fixed” by this time, what is significance of above statement?
At the time of death, the soul is forced out of the body, which means that the consciousness gradually withdraws from the gross body into the subtle body. As you withdraw from a situation, you get the bigger perspective. Then you can see your whole life in perspective. So, withdrawing means getting the big picture and entering means knowing the details. Even during old age, the consciousness is sometimes withdrawn, and one starts evaluating their whole life in perspective. So, perspective comes when you are detached, withdrawn, or dissociated from a particular situation.
But there may be aspects of your life that you like, and there may be aspects that you dislike. What you like, the consciousness is stuck at that point, and that is the basis of the next body. But even if you dislike something, but it has become a habit, it will stay with you, although it may be less prominent. So, it will go to your next life, and it will manifest occasionally until it is completely removed. Thus, even a person who is mostly calm may become aggressive sometimes. Even a person who is mostly honest may become dishonest sometimes. That is because aggression and dishonesty are there in them but in a weakened form. The situation excites that potential into activation.
A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. So many times, we don’t see the problems in ourselves because we are in a good situation. We don’t realize how many dirty things are within us. The situation exposes that dirt. At the time of death, we see the whole chain, and we like something, and that becomes the prominent aspect of the next life. But the other aspects are hidden in us.
If we remember Krishna in our lives sometimes, but give more priority to our family, job, society, etc., then at the time of death when we look at our life in perspective, our consciousness will get stuck into family, job, society, etc. because they have been the higher priority in our life. Then, based on that remembrance, we will get the next material body, although the devotion to Krishna would not be lost. Then, over time, it will restart from the place it was before, as we come into contact with devotees again. We will remember Krishna exclusively at the time of death if He is the only priority in our life. Even if we have Krishna as a priority, but it is mixed up with many other priorities, then the next birth with send us to a devotee home where there will be devotion to Krishna, but mixed up with other things. This process continues until Krishna becomes the only priority in life.
So, there are two factors. First, the next body is based on the last remembrance. Second, that last remembrance is mostly based on the life that we have lived. There can be some exceptional scenarios in which the last remembrance is different from the life that we have lived. But that is an exception. In Srimad Bhagavatam, the stories of King Bharata and Ajamila are cited as examples. King Bharata got stuck at the end in a deer, although the rest of his life was great. Likewise, Ajamila remembered Narayana at the time of death, and he was liberated. These are exceptional scenarios. They are noted to emphasize how important death is, and that life is just a preparation for a good death.
Death is the exam, and life is the preparation for that exam. The general rule is that if you prepare well for the exam, then you can do well in the exam. But it is possible that you prepare well for the exam and then something goes wrong during the exam, and you fail. It is also possible that you don’t prepare well for the exam, and you still do well in the exam by fluke. These two are exceptional scenarios. The most likely scenario is that if we don’t prepare then we will also fail.January 26, 2022 at 5:34 am #13787
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