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Hare Krishna Prabhu
Prabhu why is it that other vaishnavas from other sampradayas do not accept that Mahaprabhu is Krishna Himself? Is it due to not bieng mentioned in the scriptures? And do you know some scriptural references for Mahaprabhu’s status as Krishna Himself? Asking because the references that I found did not mention the exact location of the text except for Sb 11.5.32-34 but even they are not accepted by other vaishnavas. Why is it so?
The different Vaishnava Sampradayas are divided at present, quite like the Vedic system is divided at present into dozens of branches. We have to unify those branches and then people will accept. Superiority has to be established by our work not just by our claims. There is superiority of Gaudiya Vaishnavism established as a result of Prabhupada’s work bringing the Vedic knowledge to the whole world. Like that we have to demonstrate the superiority of the philosophy by uniting the divided Vedic traditions and the system that unites will be accepted as superior.
People will not simply accept your idea as the best idea. You have to prove that you are superior due to that idea. That requires work. Spiritual progress and superiority must also have empirical and rational proof. It not simply by my claim that I become the supreme. We are not a system that thrives by forcing our position down other people’s gullet. We have to prove we are better empirically and rationally.
I am sorry but I am having a problem in understanding the principle behind this criteria that the system that unites will be accepted as superior. Please explain a bit more on this.
And sorry for asking again Prabhu but my initial doubt still remains which is that what scriptural references do we have to support that Mahaprabhu is Krishna Himself. Sb 11.5.32-34 are there but because different interpreatations are done by other scholars of Sb therefore it is creating a doubt for me. Therefore I request you to kindly explain on these verses too Prabhu. Please forgive me if I am asking the wrong questions.
Below are some references, although I don’t have the verse numbers. Srila Jiva Goswami did study of all the scriptures and collected citations for Lord Chaitanya. I haven’t studied the Sandarbhas but one who has studied can give the details.
In the Nrsimha-Purana:
satye daitya-kuladhi-nasa-samaye
simhordhva-martyakrtis
tretayam das-kandharam
paribhavan rameti namakrtih
gopalan paripalayan vraja-pure
bharam haran dvapare gaurangah
priya-kirtanah kali-yuge
chaitanya-nama prabhuhThe Supreme Personality of Godhead who in the Satya-Yuga appeared as a half-man, half-lion to cure a terrible disease that had ravaged the daityas, and who in the Treta-Yuga appeared as a person named Rama (Lord Ramachandra), the person who defeated the ten-headed Demon Ravana, and who in the Dvapara-Yuga removed the earth’s burden, and protected the Gopa (cowherd men) people of Vraja-pura, will appear again in the Kali-Yuga. His form will be golden, He will delight in chanting the Lord’s holy names, and His name will be Chaitanya.
In the Padma-Purana:
yatrayogesvarah saksad
yogi-cintyo janardanah
chaitanya vapur aste
vai sandranandatmakahThe Supreme Personality, Janardana, who is the object of the yogis’ meditation, who saves the devotees from various sufferings, and who is the master of all yogic practices, who is always full of divine transcendental ecstasy and bliss, will advent in His own divine form of Sri Chaitanya.
In the Garuda-Purana:
kaleh prathama sandhyayam
lakshmi- kanto bhavisyati
daru-brahma-samipa-sthah
sannyasi gaura-vigrahahIn the first part of Kali-Yuga, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will come in a gold-like form. First He will become the husband of Lakshmi (Srimati Lakshmi Devi, Lord Chaitanya’s first wife). Then He will become a sannyasi, near Lord Jagannatha who will appear in a divine wooden form.
In the Garuda-Purana:
aham purno bhavisyami
yuga-sandhyau visesatah
mayapure navadvipe
bhavisyami sachi sutahI will take birth as the son of Sachi, in Navadvip-Mayapur. I will come in my complete spiritual form in the first part of Kali-Yuga.
In the Padma-Purana:
kaleh prathama-sandhyayam
gaurangotham mahi-tale
bhagirathi-tate ramye
bhavisyami sachi-sutahI shall appear on this earth in the first part of Kali-Yuga in a beautiful place on the bank of the Bhagirathi. I shall have a golden form, and I shall take birth as the son of Sachi.
In the Brahma-Purana:
kaleh prathama sandhyayam
gaurangotham mahi-tale
bhagirathi-tate bhumni
bhavisyami sachi-sutahI will reveal my eternal golden form in the first part of Kali- Yuga. I will advent on the earth on the bank of the Bhagirathi as son of Mother Sachi.
In the Garuda-Purana:
kalina dakyamananam
paritranaya tanu-bhrtam
janma prathama sandhyayam
karisyami dvijatisuIn the first part of the age of Kali, I will come among the brahmanas to save the fallen souls, who are being burned by the troubles of the age of Kali.
Each Sampradaya is a university. If the students of a university are better than the students of other universities, then that university is taken as the best authority. In India, IITs are the best engineering colleges because their students have become CEOs and entrepreneurs. The IITs have a reputation because of their students. They may have good professors too. However, if the professor has great credentials but the students are dull then the professor’s credentials lose their value.
The reputation of a Sampradaya depends on the students. Whichever Sampradaya will do great things will be accepted as the best Sampradaya. It is open competition even in the spiritual realm. It is not just by a rubber stamp of scripture. If the initial Acharyas are great but later disciples are useless then the potency is lost. Whichever Sampradaya has the potency will last for long and win over other Sampradaya.
The superiority of a scientific theory is determined by the unity it brings among the different phenomena. To be a universal theory, it must explain all the phenomena. Similarly, to be accepted as the best understanding of the Vedic system, one view has to explain all the existing texts. Otherwise, if you reject some text then others are not going to to give up that text just because you have rejected it.
Therefore, we have to prove that other forms of worship are good but not the best. We have to establish how there are many aspects of Krishna and some aspect is better than others. Just like in a body, the heart is the most important, similarly, Krishna Consciousness is the heart of the Vedic system, but there are other parts of the Vedic system too. The Sampradaya that has the vision and understanding to establish that one thing is the heart and other things are legs and hands will unite all the Sampradayas. The strength of the Vedic system will come from that unity.
The Srimad Bhagavatam states: nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam, which means that the Bhagavatam is the ripened fruit of the tree of Vedic knowledge. The fruit grows on a tree, but it is not the whole tree. And yet, the fruit is the purpose of the tree. It has to be proven that the other texts are trunks, branches, twigs, and leaves. When everything has a place in the tree, and the Bhagavata Purana is established as the fruit then the whole Vedic system is united. Those who have the vision and understanding and can establish this unity will be accepted as supreme.
Hare Krishna Prabhu. Thank you for kindly associating with me by answering my unnecessary questions.
Prabhu you said “It is open competition even in the spiritual realm.” Please kindly explain more on this point.
I knew about the references that you have given Prabhu but I was doubtful because the exact location of these verses was not avaialble suggesting that they probably do not exist now. I am doubtful because there are so many other people who claim to be God or whose followers claim the same thing. They also cite from scriptures to show that. Mahaprabhu also said that the incarnation is accepted according to the scriptural references. In such a situation how are we different than all those other people who claim the same thing? Followers of Swaminarayan are one example.
Apart from this I have something more important to ask to you. After I asked this question to you I thought about it lot. I thought that I am doubtful of Mahaprabhu’s position as Krishna Himself but there is no end to such doubts. Some people even say that Krishna is not a Vedic deity and is a recent deity something like that. Some people say that about Radha-rani too. Then there are people who reject the Vedic system itself. Basically one can go on doubting everything forever this way and never reach a conclusion at all. Then what to do? What should a person like me do in this situation?
I am sorry if I am asking the bad questions again. Please forgive me.
For the modern age, Prabhupada asked his disciples to establish God from scientific principles. I don’t know of anyone else who is working on this other than me so this is not a popular path for most people but it is what Prabhupada wished. Recently, I have done a series of videos entitled “Scientific Foundations of the Semantic View“. In this series, I discuss problems of logic, mathematics, and physics and establish basic principles such as reality is semantic and personalistic. The idea of a supreme person emerges from this science naturally as the origin of meanings and the highest level observer. You can watch this series if you like. It is for people like you.
Besides, I have published over a dozen books on problems of modern science and the solution in Vedic science. You can also browse these and read them if you like. There are links on each book that will take you to the appropriate book page. Finally, on the same page, you can see books on the Six Systems of Philosophy, where I’ve tried to establish the unity of Vedic philosophy. A lot more can be done on this trajectrory but this is a beginning. I’m also limited in my capacity to do a lot.
The process of destroying the doubts is long. It comes after one has attained perfection. The destruction of doubt is called chidyante sarva-saṁśayāḥ in SB 1.2.2. It comes at the end of the process described from SB 1.2.17 to 1.2.21. Having doubts is not a big deal. Everyone has doubts, whether they say it openly or not.
The essential principle after the study of books is serving devotees. One gets rapid advancement if one serves sincerely and doubts are destroyed by that. Service is the gratitude to be shown in return for knowledge. If one doesn’t serve, then even as theoretical knowledge is within, the contamination of many lifetimes is also within and the two clash, and a doubt is produced by that clash. Those who serve the devotees destroy the doubts and those who don’t keep having doubts.
By competition between Sampradaya, I mean competition to serve the Lord more and better. It means finding out what pleases the Lord more and doing that work. Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-Gita that those who spread the knowledge about Him are the dearest to Him. So who can spread the knowledge more and better is dearer to the Lord. This is competition between devotees. Similarly, there is competition with oneself in terms of doing more and better as time passes, rather than doing a little and then resting on the laurels. Competition is the natural result of the eagerness to please the Lord. It is not about trying to undermine others. The devotees help others advance even as they try to advance themselves. Competition is not a zero-sum game. Those who can do better service, become dear to the Lord and get opportunities for more and better service. This is the process of rising.
Doing all these things requires effort. Those who can put in the effort can reap the benefits. Ultimately the effort is in each person’s hands, not others.
Thank you for your answers Prabhu. I will begin with completing “Scientific Foundations of the Semantic View“ as you have suggested. Thank you for guiding me. I will try to put in as much efforts I can.
And Prabhu I found some exact verses from Vayu purana where Krishna speaks to Brahma about His future appearance as Mahaprabhu – http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/caitanya_vayu_purana.txt
I have added spaces in the link because with the link my reply was not posting. If you like I will like to have your opinion on these verses. If not then also it is completely fine. Thank you so much again Prabhu. Hare Krishna.
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